Always sounds good Doc, but hardly realiastic.  Do you respect everyone in society?  The rapist, the child molester, the thief, the drug dealer, the faudulent CEO? From there, it is all just shades of gray, take your pick!

Those people are in fact outside the pale of society, Ken which is why they take and physically put them in a cage.

"Be the change you wish to see happen." M. Ghandi

That right there is correct, but lets try not to forget that this greed is not a Conservative or Republican thing as Excalpius makes it seem. Everyone got greedy. But it's my beliefs that thru mistakes people can learn, thru nannying people expect to be saved. Besides, one can blame the Gov't (regardless of party) for making it easier to get away with, but the greedy people were the responsible ones either way.

This is a Joe User post.....I am not a Moderator for any other Forum except Wincustomize. You can only see the Moderator badge when viewing the post from Wincustomize. I am only posting my thoughts and did not intend any to be considered "official" or the opinions of Stardock. I was specific to mention that is the way "I" perceive the differences to be.

Hmmm, they all seem to live in the society around me.  Many are not in a cage, many are lesser shades of gray of the above and will undoubtedly vote on election day.  Where do you live?

I just happen to agree with T. Jefferson that "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

Oh please.  Were you around with Carter?  The problem with some people is they don't take the time to see beyond "blaming Bush".  Who were the people lining their pockets with money from Fannie May?  Who were the peopel pressuring companies to give mortgages to people who couldn't afford them?

That is irrelevant.  Anyone is free to participate, and just because they have a certain badge doesn't change the discussion. 

My original post here was not to complain about free speech being violated, far from it.  My point was that some conservative bloggers are afraid to "speak up" because of fear of retribution from the "tolderant" left.

circular saw, circular logic,  which one to apply now?

Despite the fact that you're presenting a 12 year old's taunt, I'll respond...

Not only do I have a real job (meaning I make money and pay taxes, etc.), I am currently my own boss and have made and lost millions, like most businessmen.

But more to your point, I have built companies with from 60-1200 employees with valuations (by outside investment) of from $40-750 million.  So I understand the tax issues as an employee, a self-employed businessman, an entrepreneur, as well as having been the head of small LLCs and larger S and C Corps.  And I've built these companies, one after another, through their rises and their falls, over the past 20 years. 

And, as an employee or as an employer, I'll take the Clinton boom years over the Bush bust years any day of the week. 

I've been fortunate to be involved in high value industries where the cost of benefits like health care are chump change compared to the 6+ figure salaries of the people who have worked for me.  But many of my fellow small businessmen are not as fortunate.  They have had to lay off employees to meet payroll due the massive increases in health care premiums for what is obviously shittier and shittier coverage year after year.  And we, as employees and employers are NOT better off for these increases...at all.  I have to buy gold plan/executive level coverage for my people just to have the same BASE LEVEL CARE that I had as an employee 20 years ago...Hell, as a union employee TEN years ago!

I find this shameful and insane in the world's wealthiest nation.

And an extra percent increase or decrease in my taxes, or the taxes on my companies, is not going to break my bank, period.  But if it makes a difference in restoring America's economic engine, the Middle Class, to health, I'm all for it.

"Trickle down" didn't work.  The trickles were siphoned offshore, along with our manufacturing base jobs. And our country is dangerously close to becoming a purely-service driven economy.  Historically speaking, no empire in the history of man has lasted long after that shift occurs.

Like the Chinese, I'm watching the long game here.  They are using our short-sighted, quarterly dividend driven selfish "get it all while you can and screw those who come after me" attitudes against us. 

We need to start thinking as a NATION again, not as a collection of partisan self-interested grafters and lobbyist flacks.

Not true.  The last time we had such a robust and spirited discussion, Brad kicked us out of "his sandbox" right in the middle of it by closing down the thread - and that was just last week.

Now this site isn't normally big on free speech, since it's really just a corporate outlet for Stardock, but I have to say I really do appreciate the fact that there seems to be some slack being given allowing people to vent a little here.  I am grateful for that opportunity as I believe freedom of speech is the true defining core of what it is to be American. 

I, for example, can love my country and disagree passionately with the man in the White House and I do not risk being imprisoned or executed for my political views.  We are all being monitored, Big Brother-like, and with that I disagree fundamentally, but historically speaking that kind of limited fascism always crops up just after or during conflicts, and the pendulum always swings back shortly.

So, I hope this will remain an open and free discussion, and I hope Brad's shutting down of the last thread is not representative of policy.  But since that happened just last week, you have nothing to stand on when you say that a Stardock employee engaging in this discussion carries no implied threat of closure or censure.

I do not get from the drift of your responses that you are not partisan.  On the contrary, it seems that you think all the graftersand lobbyist are Republicans or Bush devotees.  I do not recall any strong condemnation of a Democrat or perhaps I missed it.

Interesting concept, but you would not judge them had you not known they were these people. Chances are, if you are that kind of person, you would have given them respect. So yes, one could " live in a civil society with respect for each other", up until we know the real person. The problem with society is that we generalize people too much. We see a guy with a ball cap, a big jacket andbaggy pants and he's automatically labeled a thug, a gang member or someone from a bad neighborhood. We see a girl with a really short skirt, a tight shirt and high heels and she's either a prostitute, a stripper or a bimbo.

No one really knows if that guy with the ball cap, big jacket and baggy pants is just another nice guy, a great father, college student aspiring for Senator or President who likes computers, art and cooking. No one really knows if the short skirt, tight shirt high heel wearing girl is a high powered lawyer, a doctor or a scientist who thinks she looks good and doesn't mind showing off her good looks. But we wanna believe we do know and we don't usually get it right.

100% agreement!

Certainly respect for a person is something that must be earned, while I do respect the rights of all as members of society. But therein lies the rub. There is a constant push and pull about what is a "right" and who shall determine same.  Do I have a right to own a gun?  Do I have a right to have health care? Do I have a right to own a home? Do I have a right to expect others to pay for my protection from terrorists? Do I have a right to have an abortion?

It is in the details that things get a bit dicey.

While I blame the Republican controlled congress and White House for the deregulation that allowed the current Credit Default Swap gambling on Wall Street fiasco to occur, I wouldn't argue that "greed" is uniquely one party or the other's mantra. 

The Wall Streeters bought and paid for EVERY senator and representative to get what they wanted through our broken lobbying system.

I would point out, however, that due to the kind of money these people have made, it's pretty safe to say that the vast overwhelming majority of these Wall Street scumbags vote Republican year after year, because it is in their own selfish interest to do so, of course.

From Enron to AIG, I'm hard pressed to find anyone but GOP supporters at the heart of these massive corporate collapses we're all paying the bill for now.  And if you think it's a coincidence that the Republicans have had the legislative control over the past 12 years (end of Clinton through today) and this was when these laws favoring these executives were enacted, then you really don't understand the REAL way this country works behind the scenes.

I'd like to see the country change that.  Thinking for the long term financial and social health of our nation and its people is the only way we'll stay the world's sole superpower, financially, and by direct result, militarily.

I believe in this country enough to sacrifice a little of whatever I make (and we're talking a penny or two on the dollar, folks) to see her continue to lead the world for centuries to come.

And it's not going to happen by continuing to borrow nearly a trillion dollars a year from our enemies and direct competitors...ahem.

You don't see the parallel? Inconvenient? The concern re retribution or intolerance is valid in both cases. I don't understand why it isn't apparant to you.

Not so safe to say about the cuurent world. The largest recipent of funds from Wall Street for the first quarter was Obama.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041701688.html

Perhaps a quater by quarter tally would be more helpful?