RW, I believe you're probably wasting your time and effort. You're writing a lot trying to convince someone that can't be convinced. It doesn't take a genius to understand that particular ornament goes against the very fiber of what the US is. Obama's fault lies in the fact that he let an element into the WH that would do such a thing. Imagine if FDR had a swastika ornament on his tree, Lincoln a confederate flag, or Washington one of King George. Some people are just drawn to controversy, they what to make a statement, the more shocking the better. I would say a large portion of these idiots don't even understand that they would have no right to express their opinions or worse, a display of homosexuality, in public under such a regime. Yet, they are quick to pick up the mantle of the uber-intolerant just to stick it it in the eye of their perceived political and moral enemies here. I seriously doubt many of them would enjoy living under the systems they blindly promote actively or by simple indifference. 

He has not changed in any of his re-manifestations.  He is still a child, and the reason I dont bother reading his posts.  I have 4 children of my own, and if I want childish discourse, I can talk to them (although in their defense, they do appear to communicate on a more mature level).

He is still only in it for the attention.

Good comparisons! The only reason Mao is reviled less than hitler is that Mao confined his murderous ways to Chinese (just as Stalin confined his to Russians).

That only stands to reason Doc... US Liberals only want to persecute other US citizens. Doctrine is doctrine under the guise of one size fits all, as long as they are picking out the suit. 

In the end it's just really sad that one would allow politics to dictate ones beliefs. That just because it's a Democrat who did it, it's somehow OK but had it been a Republican in the White House, the Democrats would have been raising more hell than this.

I think you're probably right; exceot for the fact that I don't think he "can't be convinced"....it's that he won't.

Yet by saying the man should not put it up - goes against the very stiches that hold the fabric of our country together: the freedom of expression and dissent.

[quote]Obama's fault lies in the fact that he let an element into the WH that would do such a thing. Imagine if FDR had a swastika ornament on his tree, Lincoln a confederate flag, or Washington one of King George. Some people are just drawn to controversy, they what to make a statement, the more shocking the better. [/quote

Why is it that you claim to accept that people should live their lives as they see fit, yet you jump and go after every damn thing that you view as counter to your view of America? How is that supporting our principles? How is it supporting the freedom of speech/expression? The damning of such, even "unamerican" things, seems counter American.

A thought worth pursuing - Maybe the enemy of America isn't merely one thing or another, maybe they are those who would have the country conform to only their views - i.e conservative who damns every non conforming thing; the christian who pushes the legal system (laws, referendum, etc.) to conform the law to their own views, the liberal, communist, or whatever - who do the same. Maybe it is intolerance of differen views. Ya think?

You've clearly show yourself to be intolerant in this matter.  

Do you ever listen to what I say? Apparently not...good grief.

Which you've done yourself. Cast the plank from your own eye kettle.

Like those who use it to drive up ratings, or those who choose to use it as another club to bash someone? Indeed, I agree.

Like?

There's a difference between a child who showed signs of problems and a friggin' tree ornament and the decorator who decided to put it on the tree. Again, I'm not saying to not be awake and aware - just pick and choose the battles, so to speak.   

Actually, I would have to say the bigger problem was the failure of the international intelleigence/security community as a whole to watch him, since he went from Nigeria to Amsterdam and then to the US. The US did fail, from what I have read, to communicate - but if the guy really was such a threat - wouldn't other countries have had their eye on them too? Makes sense.

Charles, I've been open minded; in fact, you and a couple other people on here have changed my mind on some things, so don't go using that as an excuse. My aim isn't to say that others cannot express themselves, but that so often people express themselves in knee jerk reactions that don't put much - if any - thought into it. Example: OMG, the ornament is another little thing that prove Obama is a closet communist!

Woah, hold on a second. Does it really prove that? Yes, it is interesting that this happened - given what has happened before, but it isn't conclusive. Could it be that perhaps, as the various news outlets have stated, some organization out in the united states somewhere wanted to decorate it that way? Sure, maybe.

All I'm saying is why jump to conclusions, when clearly, not all of the information is available. We don't know if he was aware of the ornament; we don't kow if he knew about the decorator; we don't know about a lot of what goes on. All that can be "known" (more like assumed), is what we can gather from what info we have.

Get it straight Charles: I would never say that someone cannot express their views, even if they're boneheaded or knee jerk. In fact, one of my favorite quotes is a composite normally attributed to Voltaire, it goes, ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. " I may not agree with it, and I may think it is mind boggling - but I would fight for your right.

Like I said, I'm just saying - give it thought, research, maybe even a little benefit of the doubt. For the most part what I've seen on this site (and elsewhere) is merely knee jerk opinions that are, more often than not, based on rumors, assumptions and bias. What gives?

Quite frankly, I do not believe that this ornament - by itself - is a big deal. Doesn't mean that I'm going to ignore anything like it, but I just am not concerned over this. I'm more concerned about other actions of his, like helping push through the health care bill.

And yes, the small things do count in relationships, but this doesn't have to do with relationships, but bias and events and the way people take them - sometimes the small things happen by mere chance/coincidence. If Y happens, that doesn't necessitate that the cause is X.

The whole ornament deal could easily have been coincidence/decorator's choice, as much as it could have been some piece of a conspiracy by a closet communist president. How come you cannot admit that chance?

So...who's being open minded?

Yes, perhaps it could have been, but I can't speak on it since I don't know much about what went on behind closed doors.

Tell me....How is it that I "can't be convinced," when I have been convinced on various issues discussed on here; have conceded that I'm open to being convinced (On the first page of this discussion in fact); have consistantly said that I am open to discussion, but being skeptical to things that sound like conspiracy theories, I'm going to need harder evidence.

How again...is that my not being able to be convinced?

~A

You know, I disagree with your assumption of liberals - but I can agree with the second sentence (Oh my god...was I just convinced? )

Pot meet kettle, good grief.

Charles, where are you drawing that conclusion from? I mean really - dude, keep whatever you're on away from me! I don't care if it had been a democrat in office; I would the same what. My stubborn sketpcism is drawn from the fact that I just don't buy such grandiose claims. I'm a "I will believe it when I see it" type of person - hence, unless someone lays out a case for something with solid evidence - I won't likely won't bite. (Referencing the saying: hook, line and sinker)

None of it has to do with the political party. Hell, if I had my kicks, political parties would be found in the comedy (and tragedy) section of the local Borders.

You know...my first, knee jerk reaction, was to just ignore you while calling you a name, but I'm going to try to be the better man here and simply ask you a question.

Since you think that I haven't changed and that I'm still the immature youth that I was years ago (which I have not denied, and have accepted full responsibility for...), what is it that makes you think that I'm still that way. You obviously have a strong opinion, and I am open to hearing it. I apparently do not see how I am being immature, but I'm open to learning. Maybe I can change, or show you that I have changed (in my opinion), and perhaps we can reach an accord of sorts.

Are you willing to work with me?

~AJ

None are so blind as those what will not see.

I don't believe pedophilia is right either. There are some things that should not be done, in the name of free expression or otherwise. They violate much more than just American values. I don't expect you to understand.

Yes I'm clearly intolerant of honoring murderous dictators on the WH Christmas tree, a symbol of love and peace. Great analysis Einstein. 

Oh brother. Channeling the fore fathers now are we?

Is Mao in your America view? What an asinine response. I'll go out on a limb and suggest most American's don't share Maoist values, other than you of course. When you visit someones house what prevents you from taking a crap on their sofa? You'd just be expressing yourself, right? Or maybe it's a sense of right and wrong, a concept you can't seem to grasp on this particular issue.

Well then you should have no problem giving the good people an example of a dictator or ideology, hell any intolerant regime, that I've sided with just to upset the left. I'll help, there isn't one. You have demonstrated yourself to be a petty liar that likes to create an explanation and twist it to suit you needs. The DNC would be proud.

Yes, the DNC counts on sheep.  But then all children are petty and liars at times.  They only know they want, but not what, and not how to get it. 

As I said, you waste your time arguing with a child.  A spoiled child at that.  You cant convince the obstinate.  Or the stupid.  Ignorance may be curable, but stupidity is chronic.

What grand claim?  Obama has surrounded himself with communists almost his whole life.  This is fact.

I meant gradiose claims as any claim that is conspiracy theory-esque; anything grand, sweeping, nearly absurd, etc. Again, as I will repeat for the billionth time here - I'm not dismissing Obama's ties, merely saying that this ornament fiasco is absurd.

No one has yet to prove that Obama intentionally picked the decorator to intentionally put the ornament. Not-withstanding the fact that he would have had to told the organizations to do what he wants to. To me, once you start looking at the cards in this card house - no matter how much the overal house is relevant and important - it starts to fall apart.

Intolerant, like the religous right regime that uses our system to push their personal views? Sure.

My points never dealt with my personally liking what Mao did, but with american citizens' rights to agree with whatever they want to, AND, their freedom to express themselves. My beliefs dictate that I fight for ANY person who wishes to say what they want to say, no matter what it is. For example, the quote from Voltaire.

Oh whatever...

The only assinine responses are the ones you have given me Nitro. I've done my best to be respectful, yet you have time and again, been vitrolic and dishonest intellectually. It strikes me now, due to a meory, that I've been a fool. I just cannot debate/discuss with you because you do not want to debate, you are unable to deal with different opinions and beliefs, not to mention reasoning. You, like many across america, are happy with your narrow view of the world; you're content to live in your own little, albeit delusional and novacane based, bubbles where liberals/democrats/communists (etc) are all spawns of satan.

I can pretty much sum your view up in a sentence: Anything that isn't agreeable with me is wrong and crazy.

Fine, so be it.  It's not my life.

On the contrary, merely drawing conclusions from the reading and research that I've done, being a huge fan of history, biographies, etc. That said, it would stand to reason that what I mentioned is a likely case. Not *the* case, but a plausible one at that.

Great job twisting the meaning of my words Wordsworth.

Neither do I, but that is beside the point because Pedophilia isn't covered under our constitution or law system and we're discussing the freedom of speech/expression and the concept of believing whatever one wishes - which is in our constitution.

Additionally, on the point of pedophilia, children cannot give any legal consent - as such its a moot point. Secondly, pedophilia and freedom of expression/speech  have nothing to do with each other. At the basis of our argument is whether or not expression or speech that is communist/socialist-esque, is covered under the f

Finally, it doesn't matter really what you or I think, so much as what the law, and/or, our constitution states/allows. That said, the constitution states, "or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

According to the supreme law of the land, our constitution, every citizen can say what they want. Now, of course, that doesn't mean that everything that is said is wise, intelligent, or drawn from the full use of their cognitive skills - but hey - they can say it.

Anyways, besides that, pedophilia has been shown to be a mental disorder and in the constitution it's assumed that a person who seeks to pursue life, liberty and happines is of sound mind and body - so they can pursue such. If not, then they are dealt with.

I find that unfortunate, because it shows me that you don't truly believe utmost in our nation's principles - it seems that it is only okay when it suits you or your beliefs. Still, to each their own.

pretty interesting since "he says" he's a Christian.