Awac A

When will people (who can't even SPELL) realize that it's not about comparing intellectual and physical property but about your LAME JUSTIFICATION for the act that is at the crux of this debate!

Please re-read and if you really need to, re-read my post again:

The only thing you are ENTITLED to is the right to NOT BUY something with "restrictive DRM".  Just because something has "restrictive DRM" doesn't mean you have the intrinsic right to TAKE it, moreover relish the thought of "getting one over" on the DEVS (as you so nicely state here)

Do this world a favour, and please don't have children......thanks!

the Monk

Kryo are you comparing that i go into a shop and shoplift to download something from the internet? Its not a valid comparison. Hypocrite? well maybe. But only in the game industry are you allowed to take your customer in the ass like most publishers do with these DRM schemes. For no good reason. There DRM is the main reason games get pirated. There has never been more pirating and never been so much DRM shouldnt it have been the otherway around with less pirating the more DRM? And no i dont think its ok to pirate Microsoft products just because i dont agree with there policy. Re read my post, I said its ok to pirate games when it comes to extremly restrictive DRM. How else will you teach publishers that DRM aint working? Only by removing there cash flow. And i disagree with you. The type of software and what its used for do matter.

Hey the_monk. Sorry but my native language aint english but clearly you was able to read it so i guess it sufficed?
And yes i think its warrented because only in this bussnies are you treated like a criminal to this extent. And its people like you who keep comparing piracy with all sorts of physical theft? so why do you think people keep bringing up this comparison? Please re-read your own post.

To boil it down. Why should pirates get to play with no problem while i get to have a shitload of problems all to blame on DRM just because i bought the game? NO thank you. And i know its wrong and no i have no right to pirate games and theres nothing i rather would then support devs who make good games. But its also wrong driving 10 mph to fast on the highway i bet some of you do it anyway, risking the lives of your fellow drivers.

And why make it so personal? Who are you to tell who should and shouldnt have children, cheer up a bit.

Kryo why I do agree with you that game companies have the right to protect themselves the answer unfortunately is not DRM---unfortunately there are many people out there including myself that have had problems with drm in the past---there are other ways companies can protect themselves---the problem I have personally with drm is whether or not I'm going to be able play the game out of the box when I have the system to run it---I shouldnt have to go into a forum or anywhere else to find help to play a game due to a drm issue---that is why I personally avoid drm games---it's just not worth the hassle------I hope stardock does not plan on using it!!!!

The whole point is there shouldnt be any need for game companies to protect themself. There is no logic behind pirating games other then somebody not wanting to pay for other peoples work. Those people will always be there and you simply cant beat them. Luckly 99% of the people out there buy there games. So no need for DRM.

Exactly. Pirates are not a factor. People who don't want to pay for the game, won't pay for the game, even if it means not buying it. They get an illegal copy just because its free and easy. Only a small percentage would actually go out and buy the game if it wasn't available for download, especially in today's oversaturated market.

As for the shoplifting detectors analogy, let me ask this: if the said store had detectors which go off all the time, which require you not to wear various items of property which might be used for shoplifting, so you have to take off your baggy trousers if you want to leave the shop (DRM often blocks other programs such as drive emulation software), and if the store called on you every day to check that your bought goods are really bought and haven't turned stolen overnight... and so on - how long do you think the said store would remain in business?

This sort of business practice is possible only because most of the gaming population are a semi-addicted bunch willing to take it up the rear so they can get their next "fix" and simply don't care how they are treated as long as they get to play. As far as I see, there's very little customer protection and rights when it comes to the gaming industry.

The point is that just because the prevention method for a crime is inconvenient to you it does not justify you to go ahead and commit the crime.

As I said, that's an entirely different argument, and yes, I think it's a futile way to go about preventing piracy. But it's their product and their right to do as they like. The consumer likewise has the right to boycott those products or companies if they disagree with the methods used. Piracy is not a valid or justified method of protest, however. The only messages that sends to the top suits are "we need to use stronger DRM" and "customers are a bunch of freeloading jerks".

Boycott them. Publicize your belief that their methods are unacceptable. Write letters to the management noting how their policies have resulted in you and your friends not buying it when otherwise you would. All of these are more effective than pirating it, which only proves them right.

The irony is so called "pirates" have a higher legitimate purchase rate than non-pirates, and the existance of such piracy is beneficial for price manipulation of the market.

Oh, and there are DRM methods that work, they just aren't widespread.

Like that would work. I think your forgetting the human factor. Like ManSh00ter said

Another point is this. Imagin if all piracy stopped tommorow. Where would we be? the publishers would triumph that DRM has won the battle and used even more of it in the future.

There have always been pirates and there will always be pirates. The reason why we have DRM is that products with the promise to eliminate piracy did appear on the market, nothing else.

Piracy is not free, you have to spend a lot of time into finding and downloading the warez, which can be of dubious quality. People are even prepared to pay for piracy given the popularity of providers warez binary newsgroups. When the balance between time investment, financial investment and product quality of warez copies is better than that of authentic copies, piracy will grow out of control. As soon as the balance of authentic copies is better, piracy will shrink.

Technological progress like P2P reduces the time investment for warez and thus promotes piracy. DRM reduces the quality of authentic copies, while at the same time it provides an intellectual challenge for crackers who jump on to show to their cracker friends how smart they are. This effect makes it technically ineffective. It is sometimes hoped the DRM will prevent incidental copies at LAN parties, but as most gamer know how to find cracks it does not, in fact the industry teaches gamers to find cracks, as removing DRM increases the quality of the product.

And there we are at situation the industry is in.

Now, of course, boycotting a product using unacceptable DRM is both the most ethical and the most effective. However, going to back to the shoplifting analogy. Suppose lamp manufacturers suddenly decide that people wanting light need to identify them using chipcards to the lamp and start making such lamps en masse. Only a few manufacturers care about their customers and keep producing normal lamps.

Of course, the only right thing is to buy the normal lamps, this will force the manufacturers to produce normal lamps again. But this will limit the customer's choices in various ways, instead of a choice out of 1000s of lamps he needs to choose between only a few lamps. It is not unthinkable that in this totally hypothetic situation a black market would come into existance that would remove the chipcard slots from lamps. One can expect that such a black market would attract a lot of sympathy amongst customers that want to buy lamps, suddenly they can get the lamps that they want without the limitations.....

It is in this light that I view piracy of games from publishers that fuck their customers. Legal? No. Ethical? Depends on your viewpoint. Understandable? Absolutely.

Exactly. Not buying and not playing it is by far the most effective way of making your wish heard by producers. It is not easy, if developers make an otherwise fantastic game it can be annoying that you cannot play it, and maybe you don't want to punish developers for the sins of their publishers. However, if you want to be taken seriously as consumer, just as businesses often make difficult decisions, so will you have to do as consumer. Buying=doing business. Be a good businessman.

Its a myth that consumers can control anything through what they buy unless it happens on a extremly large scale. Which it wont for games. Again i point to ManSh00ters post.

 But now i shall go download Demigod from the internet!!!....


Through Impulse ofc!
Yes i actualy own all the Stardock games... gasp!

Awac A,

Nothing of what you've since tried to put more eloquently changes what you said here:

and the contradiction in terms here:

All I hear you saying is that you HATE DRM and therefore will use anything even the fact that that DRM exists as a JUSTIFICATION for your (not right even as you put it) actions!

You even go so far as to say you'll steal the game to prove to the publisher that they are not in fact "oh so clever".

Those aren't valid arguments my friend.  They are quite the opposite and only help to further strengthen my point:  (quoting myself from an earlier post)

You have absolutely no argument against what I said, at least not from the position (of circular reasoning) you are coming from  (because DRM exists I'm entitled to pirate, and not only that....but I'm entitled to ENJOY the act!)

EDIT:  I have 3 kids, maybe that's why "circular reasoning" doesn't get anywhere with me....

the Monk

Well part of the problem with games is you have buyers who buy them that don't actually play the games... aka family and friends. My parents used to buy me games when I was younger until they finally gave up because they couldn't follow the requirements very easily which, back then, changed more quickly than they seem to now. And then they didn't even have to worry about DRM. I mean this Wal-mart shelf space want so many publishers have, you know the part where companies remove content in an effort to avoid hire ratings to get it, seems directed at impulse buyers or friends and family of gamers than gamers themselves, also people less likely to know anything about the DRM attached to the game. I generally know a lot about a game before I buy it, and I only buy it B&M because of a better price or some sudden desire of near instant gratification.

The other problem is, unless you follow DRM news, you don't realize how it's going to affect you until the first time you go to install and are told you reached your limit. Very few of these companies are upfront about their DRM. They often put it in mice type on the back of the box, just like sleezy late night TV ads. They wait until the month of release to verify it if even that soon. Ghostbusters for the PC seemed to have a delay in not only that it required online activations but that was the only reason for the listed online requirement since it doesn't have a multiplayer component at all.

As for writing a letter of complaint to a gaming company. That's a joke. This industry, in general, barely responds to legit customer service issues as it is.

I know piracy isn't the answer, and I really don't pirate things myself. After the DRM incident with Amazon, waiting for the market to treat it customers better doesn't seem like an answer either. We're better off writing our congressmen and asking for some basic rights to what we buy, even if it is just to clarify that these are licenses, we don't own anything and therefore it should be marketed accordingly... oh and get rid of the EULA lunacy.

[duplicate]

Who said i needed any justification?

And yes i do wish to support devs who make good games who dont resort to DRM and yes i support and understand people who pirate DRM games to piss off the devs and publishers who use DRM.

Its rather simple if you ask me.

The publishers are stupid, they are wrong, im right. Basicly thats the logic and the justification if your looking for any, and poperly the only one you will find. There isnt some universal truth that says its wrong to pirate. Its relative. As long as the goal justify the means. And like so many others said. Protection of consumer rights is a black hole when it comes to software. So why should we treat them any different then they treat us.