Maybe you misread what I said.  I'm not talking about refunds (though that is partially a good option at this point).

I'm talking about you baiting customers with your false claims of being anti-DRM (now anti copy-protection).  Cheating on your customers' trust is morally bankrupt--in other industries, it's called false advertising, which is generally illegal.

In other words, this is a discussion about the relationship between business and consumer.  In ages past, meat-processing plants used to process tons of filth into the consumer's meat supply--many horrific things (for the consumer) happened in many industries, and to a lesser extent they still do.  Consumers back then didn't buy meat because of all the garbage in it--likewise, I'm very certain that almost everyone that bought SoaSE didn't buy the game for Impulse or any other DRM attached to it.  Eventually, your two-faced marketing/'lock-in" strategy will backfire.  Which brings me to my point.

Listen to your customers (seriously), even if you don't like what they're telling you.  I guarantee that it will result in much better game quality, much better customer satisfaction, and increased revenue.  Look at Guild Wars, for instance—many people don't like the concept of a monthly fee in a MMO, and they've sold at least 5 million units at approximately $30 per unit (which far exceeds the revenue you've made with SoaSE).  Optimally, it would be best if your genuine love of gamers/gaming guided your company, but it's understandable if money (to a limited extent) is a motive.

Regarding the "hush money" you offered me, no thanks.  Considering your past "tendencies", I should have seen that one coming.

To conclude with an improvement of Google's supposed motto of "Don't be evil"... Be good.

I'm pretty sure Brad's legal knowledge, as well of Stardock's legal department, far outstrips yours.

Plus, if you fail to understand what DRM is, what copy protection is, and what Impulse does how do you expect your argument to carry any weight?

But since I'm feeling generous this evening, I'll give you a hint: patching is free post release support for the consumers, and it is the only time the CD key is checked. There's no lock-in. If they made Impulse required to run the game, you would have a point. But it isn't. So, you don't.

You can try to twist it as much as you'd like, but it won't change the simple fact that you're wrong in your assumptions and your arguments.

Of course it also doesn't take much to notice your selective ignoring of all the rational counter-arguments to your prolonged whine, which would lead most people to believe (quite correctly, I think) that all you're doing is finding something to complain about just for the sake of complaining, no matter how much of a fool you make yourself. Keep it up by all means, though - you aren't winning any friends among all those "lied to" consumers you claim to represent

Indeed, your whole argument fails becasue you're operating on the premise that Stardock is somehow obligated to provide patches and upgrades to you for free. They're not. That they do so is laudable. Requiring you to use Impulse and a CD key/authorization to get these things is not a DRM scheme, nor is it 'lock-in', since it's free and you can still play the game whether you choose to use this service or not.

This certainly feels like it's continuing for the sake of continuing. It's been beaten to death... four times now?

It's a good thing I don't count my friends on this forum, wouldn't you say Annatar?

Regarding Impulse not being a "lock-in" mechanism, please feel free to brush up on what customer "lock-in" means (for starters, customer "lock-in" doesn't mean that Impulse checks the CD key before the game starts).

Also, I'm not going to address the rest of your post.  Not because I'm being selective, but rather because you haven't backed up anything that you said.  You say I don't know what DRM/copy-protection/Impulse is?  Prove it.  You say I'm wrong in my arguments and assumptions?  Prove it.

I've taken the time to type my messages with sufficient examples and citations.  You can opt to not be lazy and put some thought into your responses too.  In normal forums, flamers are met with a swift ban, but you seem to be exempted by the merit that you and Frogboy share the same position.

Please refer to a reply I posted in the SoaSE 1.1 Beta Change Log Thread, specifically reply #121

The argument there is compounded by the fact that the SoaSE EULA & Manual both contain a section about updating the game, as well as updating the game is now a standard industry practice.

*sigh*

Your entire argument seems to hinge on the statement that people paid for the patches. That's not true. They paid for 1.0. As such, it's not lock in because the switching costs are something that was provided for FREE.

As for the argument that they MUST make patches... It's good business sense, but it's not MUST.

Browser error: Hope this doesn't double post...

I believe my supply of troll food has run dry.

Patches are fixes to the product that were paid for out of the retail cost of the product itself.

Updates are extra content that is usually charged for or released for free to customers who paid for the origional.

Most companies mix patches and upgrades together as its easier to do one patch/upgrade then seperate ones.

My argument is that I hvae paid for the patches (I was not given a discount for purchasing a game with no support) and I have no problem with verifying that I own a game. I do have a problem with not being able to patch an offline game (by what ever means) and by having to activate said patched game.

Nothing was mentioned on the box about the restrictions placed on support.

Someone else above said that Stardock are may be working on a way to get patches via an Impule enabled computer to a offline computer. Is this the case and will the offline computer need "activating" (hopefully not) or will this have been confirmed with the CD key on the Impusle enabled computer (hopefully)?

If Stardock are planning to do this in the near future I'll shut up right now!

If that's the way you feel you have to react to a fan/customer who bought your game ? No problem !!!

Goodbye, wish you the best of luck!

Thats one way or losing customers! At least pirates don't have to put up with this level of customer support!

I have to sympathise with Frogboy and Co here.  They earn a living making a damn good game, after it's release they invest a lot of the companies money to improve what is already a good and stable game and give this to it's customers free of charge.  What do they ask in return?  That you install a comparitively small program that serves as a game patcher, game advertisement and game distribution platform.  Big fucking deal, I could just play 1.0 or one of the patches I downloaded previously, it makes for a damn good game, very good value for money and I certainly have no right to demand any more for what I paid for it.  I might expect it or ask for it but think I have a god given right to be given free stuff afterwards without me just proving to SD that I bought it in the first place and not downloaded from the countless sites that offer it for free easily? nah

I've attempted to inject some reason in to Venym's moral crusader thread about Impulse being unbareable to him but seriously this guy is 100% idiot.  I think he's read one too many conspiracy web sites about Software Vendors Locking their customers in (can anyone say Microsoft?) and now has a bee in his bonnett about anything that looks like what he read about.  I'm not even sure he truely believes the bullshit he is spouting?  I can't help but think that he does actually feel a fool for making a big deal out of nothing but now continues to argue to try and convince himself that he was right in the first place.  Either way I'm really glad I'm not you, I can only guess from your stand point on this that you must also refuse to use Windows, any Microsoft Product, any EA game, any Valve game, any MMO....thinking about it you wont have much to do with yourself in years to come.  Let's hope you come out of your nuclear bunker and smell the roses some time this decade, for your sake more than anything.

Which is why your argument also fails. You didn't pay for the patches. You paid for the license to use the copy of the software on that disc. The cost of the game does not include cost of support. It is usually provided free of charge, but not always. There are plenty of companies who charge for post-release support (most commonly, tech support). Furthermore, Frogboy himself said above that Sins has no activation, and previously said they are looking into ways to enable patching on permanently offline PCs.

Furthermore, nothing is ever mentioned about support on the box because support is not included in the box. This is the central flaw of your argument, your assumption that when you bought the game, you paid for the support and thus have expectations for how it's handled. But it's the wrong assumption.

Perhaps you should brush up on what it means, instead, since you seem to be struggling with it. Stardock is the only company allowed to publish patches for Sins. No other publisher or developer has legal access to the Sins' source code or permission to make and publish patches. As such, how can there be a customer lock-in by Stardock when they are the only ones allowed to publish patches to begin with?

Definision of customer lock-in:

So, how exactly does this apply to Impulse? Easy, it doesn't. Since no other "vendor" can legally create and publish patches (ie provide support) for Sins, there can be no customer lock-in. To compare Impulse to customer lock-in is like saying that a store chain that has both physical stores and online shopping practices customer lock-in if certain things are available online only, or if a certain company offers support online only and not by phone.  It makes absolutely no sense.

You're making this too easy. Since this revolves around Sins, let's use it as the perfect example:

- No copy protection on the disc. You can install from copies, it doesn't check for the CD in the drive.

- No cd key check on install. You don't need a valid cd key to install the game.

- No cd key check on game launch. You don't need a valid cd key to play the game.

- No activation. You don't need to ever be connected to play the game. Not the first time you launch, nor ever.

- No registration/Impulse. You do not need to have Impulse installed, or running, to play the game.

- You do need a valid cd key to patch. But hey, guess what, DRM doesn't encompass patching, thus needing a valid key to patch a game cannot be a form of DRM, because the game itself is unaffected.

Furthermore, Impulse itself is not DRM. It is a distribution platform. It has DRM features built in that publishers and developers can use, but it doesn't force them (unlike Steam - in which case, every Steam game has the same form of DRM, in that it requires steam to be running). As you can see, Sins uses none of the features of DRM, or of copy protection.

As I've said, you don't even understand what you're trying to argue about!

Alas, I'm also out of troll food. Arguing facts with you is impossible, because you can't accept any.

What level is that? Lots of free updates? Interaction with the development and publishing team? 

Or do you mean that your view of the relationship between gamer and developer/publisher is a license for the gamer to issue unlimited demands in the shrillness possible way?

But yes, I absolutely meant what I said.  People who have unrealistic or unreasonable expectations or requirements are not someone I want to do business with.

That's right - they get NO customer support, vs not wanting to engage with trolls who go on and on and on via the forums the publisher provides as a courtesy to enhance the game community...