I don't think anyone here is denying the importance that unions had to creating decent working environments and livable wages in this country.  The problem is that some unions today are actually killing businesses and how exactly does that help the employees?  If GM goes out of business is that going to help the workers?  No, but is that any reason for the government to step in and give large sums of money to GM just to keep them afloat?  No. 

The unions need to start realizing that sometimes the way to fight for their members is by offering up salary cuts or benefit cuts so that the business can remain in business.  I doubt the employees involved would be too happy if their employer went belly up all of the sudden when they could have done something to prevent it.  That doesn't mean that the executives shouldn't start making some sacrifices as well (they most certainly should) but in these economic times everyone needs to help out to weather the storm.

Pftttt yeah I wouldnt mind if the unions actually cared besides lining pockets. Why cant auto maker unions do what the airline unions do? if the company is in trouble...hey lets cut back a bit so we all can keep the jobs, I mean after all... who needs a woody after work right? Its not a need.

Plus how long ago was the last "loan"...thats what 2 or so months ago? And they are asking for more? and where will they be 2 or 3 months from now? thats right in the same fricken situation that they are in now and was 3 month ago

exactly what ive been saying. I was talking somewhere else about this also... and me being in all 3 situations myself ( union, scab ( I NEEDED to work.) and non union ) so I have seen the best and the worst of all 3.

I have seen my last union memebers agree to take a cut on pay ( at least a cap on the pay scale with some bonues per year + cost of living increases ) give a bit in the health area... just to make it competitive. We also looked out for the new hires by raising the starting wage along with the ability to get bigger rasies till they get to the cap.

It can be done. We didnt like it, but we also understood the health of our plant depended on what we did . It was either do that OR watch our jobs get shipped off down south where it could be done cheaper. Pick your poison and I am sorry working and getting that paycheck with job security was much more important than wishing to get more money and ride the wave and HOPE our job was safe.

Unions were good when they were needed but they also have to change the thinking or else they too will be belly up. they are hurting workers more than they are helping in most cases

You shouldn't bail out companies. If a company is performing so poorly it can't make any money, WHY would you want to keep it going? Let it go under, and have a more efficient company take it's place. Or in the case of a sector, let it fail, and have people+funds move to more productive areas where money can actually be made. The obsession with the short term 'must protect jobs' attitude is it's far more costly long-term. As a general rule a bail out is the wrong choice - you need some pretty exceptional circumstances for it to be justified (and even then it'd be debatable).

Unions currently are generally a bad thing. We've got the basic necessities such as laws ensuring workers can work in a safe environment now, meaning unions typically end up forcing up wage costs, and making them far less flexible (by making it incredibly hard for a company to cut wage costs). What does this mean? Increased demand for jobs, decreased supply of them, = higher unemployment. Sure, let's impose severe financial difficulty on some people just to line the pockets of the already decently paid a little bit more, that's fair!

Couldn't expect less of a half-baked comment from you steven. The unions where good at one point in time, no one is denying that (geesh, what does it take to get people to understand this?), what they are saying is that unions have deviated from their purpose of helping people into helping themselves and crushing companies in the process. Ever heard of "too much of a good thing is bad for you"?

I have to agree with El-Duderino (again).  The Big 3 are not going to disappear (much to the chagrin of the chicken littles screaming about after market parts - which is a way the Big 3 has gotten around fat Union contracts - so arguing for the Aftermaker and crying poor mouth for the unions is indeed speaking out of both sides of your mouth).  But they do need to start responding to consumers instead of dictating to them.

Let them file chapter 11.  They will strip down and come back stronger.  They still have a lot of good assets, but a lot of junk too, and with any luck, they will know what to strip and what to keep.

Exactly. A woefully inefficient business doesn't deserve to be in the marketplace. Don't forget that Japanese automakers offer fantastic benefits too, but they manage to deliver better engineered cars at a lower cost than most American car makers.

A government handout culture is to blame for the abysmal US car making industry more than the unions. If the car industry was told they were never going to get another handout, special consideration or tax break, we'd see a lot of lost jobs, sure. But the good shops would become vastly more efficient as a result due to the decline in protectionism. A side effect might be a decline in the unions (as they drive any industry they touch into financial disaster, people will stop joining the toxic unions). But union militancy is not the main cause.

Your mum goes down hard on me in a debate.

I thought that the Japanese government subsidizes the auto industry, and that's why they can make less expensive cars?

As a native Michigander, I'm worried about what the ripple effects will be if any of the Big 3 have to shut down, but I don't think that propping them up is going to help for long.

It will only delay the inevitable.  GM got a 25 billion dollar loan a couple of months ago which they have burned through and now they want another one.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, I think that applies here.

I think they might have I forgot the link to the story but it was recently where i read that the Japs bailed out some guys and they are still paying for it now. In a way its happening here and I am sure the same results will happen. If you dont learn then well... yeah

I feel for you and I understand your fear. I also am in fear too because this means even MORE people in the job market which is shrinking with me being a temp its already hard enough to think about the ripples from this, But I know its gonna be more than a ripple but instead a sunami.

Like I said without any change and instead a bail out this is going to repeat again and again...

I actually understand bailing out the autocompanies at this point - even some conservative economists are worried that letting these companies fail will make this recession into a depression. How many American jobs are tied to the big 3? The govenor of Michigan I believe said 1 in 10...that's a lot of purchasing power down the drain when retailers are seeing really bad numbers.

I just hope that some measures are put in place to keep us from heading down this road again though I suspect we're going to hit the trillions in bailout money before the end of this. Solutions? Regulating Wall Street is the no brainer but beyond that....

Looks like Paulson is seeing the light on this:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122650321703420903.html

Guess I'll have to ask what this means.

Exactly.  They have already received help and nothing has changed.  Billions of dollars for this new proposal and the same thing will happen.

I hope he stand and comes up with a good use of the money. I just wished that they would have said a big F U to the bonuses to those guys too